Captain Oblivious

1 - hey there, I'm following what will happen at St. John the Baptist, this story will either develop SoCon legs, or will disappear. Good commentary.

Stop by to see what develops.

2 - Actually homosexuality IS forbidden in the 10 commandments -- it is a subset of adultery, unless the couple is legally married. Which they are not, because the California supreme court annulled all marriages made in that state as of August 13th.
You are totally right that you have to go all or nothing when pushing religious doctrine. But that cuts both ways.

3 - Hm, an interesting perspecive, but I don't think it works, Dave. Adultery is defined thus (courtesy of dictionary.com - love that Firefox search dialog...):

Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)

An alternate definition, from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law:
voluntary sexual activity (as sexual intercourse) between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband

Finally, the Biblical definition is here:
conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin. The Mosaic law (Num. 5:11-31) prescribed that the suspected wife should be tried by the ordeal of the "water of jealousy." There is, however, no recorded instance of the application of this law. In subsequent times the Rabbis made various regulations with the view of discovering the guilty party, and of bringing about a divorce. It has been inferred from John 8:1-11 that this sin became very common during the age preceding the destruction of Jerusalem. Idolatry, covetousness, and apostasy are spoken of as adultery spiritually (Jer. 3:6, 8, 9; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 1:2:3; Rev. 2:22). An apostate church is an adulteress (Isa. 1:21; Ezek. 23:4, 7, 37), and the Jews are styled "an adulterous generation" (Matt. 12:39). (Comp. Rev. 12.)

In order for your contention to be valid, adultery would have to be defined as any sexual relationship between people who are not currently married to one another. So, under that definition, if I could find it, I could hold adultery to include pre-marital sex and homosexual relationships (in states that don't allow gays to marry) as well as the affairs described in the definitions above. If such a definition were held to be the truth, then homosexuality would be forbidden by the Ten Commandments.

Such a definition, as an aside, would establish that the vast majority of the population of the world is guilty of adultery, since the number of people who have never had pre-marital sex is vanishingly small. Makes attempting to enforce the idea that the Ten Commandments are the foundation of our legal system a bit tricky, too - can't very well arrest everybody, who'd be left to guard the adulterers?

As I said, though, there is no such definition of adultery, or if there is I cannot find it. Do you have a link to such a definition?

Of course, the people blaming homosexuals for having immoral sexual relationships are the same people preventing homosexuals from becoming legitimate married couples, free to engage in a completely moral sexual relationship. So the irony lies pretty heavy on the ground, no?

4 - You are right. Technically, it is fornication. I was oversimplifying the issue to make a point, and you have called me on it.

Homosexuality is not forbidden in the 10 commandments. However, you asked for a link to a definition of where it is forbidden, and that I can offer you:
Leviticus 18:22
Romans 1:27
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Timothy 1:10
Jude 1:7

In any case, I did not post to trade scriptures references with you.

What I did want to do was to make a point -- the religious opposition to homosexuality exists. But it should only exist as much as opposition exists to sexual sin of any nature. I feel that unless you are in that fraction of the population that has never engaged in premarital sex, you have no right to judge homosexuals. Actually, even then, you have no right to judge. Everyone is free to make their own choices, interpret things their own way, and live their own lives.

It sounds like we agree on that -- people should be free to make their choices, and we have no place judging them no matter what decision they make.

My point was not specifically to the 10 commandments, as you have so nicely pointed out. But those are not the only commandments in scriptures. There are many other places in the scriptures that hold fornication to be sinful, and in those scriptures, my assertion stands valid.

But you are right. If all you care about is the 10 commandments, I have nothing to stand on, and all is fine and dandy.

Now -- you want a more interesting issue?
What if, instead of claiming that our justice system had a basis in the 10 commandments, they claimed that it had a basis in Matthew 7:1-2:
"Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again"

Makes you wonder how truly free the country would be to make their own choices if everyone based their politics there?

5 - Well... since we're quoting scripture here...

Pretty much every single human being can be accused of adultery. Jesus made it pretty clear in Mat 5:27 that "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart". It's not only a physical relation... but a corruption of the heart.

So... gay, married, divorced, or whatever... we've all pretty much broken that one! And any guy that tells me that he's never REALLY checked out a women other then his wife, well... that that guy's problably guilty of "giving false witness"

6 - Oh, I wouldn't go that far, Kevin --

Everyone will be atracted to others. No argument there. But does that mean that you looked on them with lust? I do not think so. When you see someone attractive, it is quite possible to just look the other way, and not let it sink into your mind. Try it for a month -- literally look the other way. You'll find it just becomes habit, and after a while you no longer need to specifically look away because your mind just won't go there anymore.

7 - I agree with you 1000% Dave. Bouncing the eyes is an awesome exercise and is used big time in our ministry and counsel to men.

I simply brought up the point to show some agreement with the Captain here.

Unfortunately, Christians like me who most others would classify as conservative-right wing tend to have a nasty habit of easily finding the faults in some while ignore the faults in ourselves. Again, Jesus asks us why do we bother looking at the speck in someone else's eye when we ignore the plank of wood in ours.

When we decide to pick and chose what parts of the Bible we're going to follow to the letter (like in the original post that started this discussion) and others since they relate to our short comings we ignore then huge credibility of the church and Christians in general is lost on those that Jesus specifically calls us to love and pray for.

So looking at the Ten Commandments closely and we see that every single one of us has fallen short:
Don't give false witness - who of us has never told a lie, not even a little one?
Don't steal - who of us has never stolen something, even if it's only a dime from mom's purse as a kid to buy a stick of gum?
Don't murder - Jesus said you've murder someone even if you've just thought mean thoughts about someone... you've killed them in your heart - who of us has never done that?

So that's just 3 of the 10... and if we're truly honest, then by those commands we're all lying, thieving murderers in our heart.

So, I may be a conservative right-wing in my beliefs, I may consider a gay lifestyle, or gay marriage, or divorce, or abortion as being against God's original plan for mankind... but that sure doesn't stop me from loving and befriending people from all these different lifestyles and choices! In my love and respect for all people I consider that love to be pretty liberal!

And shouldn't that be what being a Christian is all about?

8 - Yep, I agree with your comments, Kevin.

It is actually very comforting to see that all three of us, with (probably) differing belief systems, are coming to the same conclusions -- that we are here to love and support everyone, whether or not we agree with their choices.

However, I feel that your post is stopping halfway:
We all sin. But we also all improve. And we repent of ours sins. While we will never be without sin, we can improve ourselves to the point that we do not commit any 'major' sins -- certainly it is achievable to not break specifically the 10 commandments.
So -- Have we ever sinned? Of course. Have we broken the 10 commandments since we truly recognized their truth and repented of our failings? Not necessarily.

I point this out because I feel that it is easy to continue in sin if you believe that it is impossible to be any other way. But I know people who truly do not commit any sin that I could identify. I aspire to be like them, and seeing that example in my life helps me get closer to that standard myself.

So I agree with all you say -- but encourage you not to stop there.

9 - Kevin, dave: Truly great comments, gentlemen. I enjoyed reading them very much. Always a pleasure hearing from people who apply their system of beliefs consistently, and even moreso when they recognize that other people can make different choices without becoming inherently evil or an abomination. My upbringing was Christian (Roman Catholic), from the agape tradition (historically and linguistically, not referring to any organizations using that word as their name), so what you're saying makes a lot more sense than some of the things I hear lately.

If you're attending The Sphere (I'm pretty sure Kevin is, don't know about dave?), I'd like to buy you a beer (or milkshake, if you prefer). Ping me here or drop me an email (link's on the front page) if you wanna take me up on it...

P.S. ... Must ... Stop ... Using ... Parantheses ...

10 - No, I'm not going to be attending. I am actually in the process of moving over to the dark side and working on .NET. Which would probably get me lynched at the Sphere.

However, I'll defer the drink to jonvon. He is attending, and I've been friends with him for years, before he even learned all this crazy Lotus schtuff. :)

11 - I always love a good natured discussion about this stuff

I am going to be at Lotusphere and would love to grab a beer (Ben Langhinrichs' blog got me interested in those milkshakes! I'm definitely going to grab one or five of those!). I'll email you my cell number.

Too bad you're not going to be there dave. It'd be fun to continue the talk in person!